Satellite Dish & TV Aerial Alignment Calculators

[Java Jive]

In the past few days I've released updated versions ...

http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/SatelliteTV/SatelliteCalculator.html
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Test/UKTerrestrialTVTest.html

... and there's now something like an intended final version of the
Aerial Alignment Calculator in the new Terrestrial TV section of the
site (addressed munged because I don't want search engines to find it
until anyone here who chooses has had a chance to rip it to bits first
- for the same reason it's not yet linked from the rest of the site,
you can get out, but not back in) ...

h t t p : / / w w w . macfh . co . uk /
JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/TerrestrialTV/TerrestrialTV.html

Another time-consuming major revamp, and, with the major exception of
the new TV Aerial Calculator, of which more anon, again it's mainly
better old functionality rather than anything startlingly new.


The major changes are ...

All Calculators:


+ Greatly improved support for (the shortcomings of) IE8.

And a number of major efforts to improve loading speeds:

+ Changing loading orders so that the pages can appear sooner. This
also required ...

+ Asynchronous script and data loading. For example, settings can
be entered into each calculator before the mapping code has finished
loading - the buttons for creating the maps become visible once the
required code has loaded. (You just cannot conceive how time
consuming that was to achieve).

+ Much better code crunching, by which I mean removal of layout
spacing in the code the sole purpose of which is to make it more
easily read by humans editing it.

- Unfortunately I cannot easily implement compression, which I
wanted, without changing hosting provider, so that hasn't happened yet


Additionally ...


The Satellite Calculator:

Updated the satellites.xml file, also removing all the transponder
data which the calculator doesn't use.

Added TM-2300 rotor.


The Test TV Aerial Alignment Calculator

Updated the transmitter files with the latest information, including
HD, and also the data is crunched more efficiently.


The Terrestrial TV Aerial Alignment Calculator

Has all the functionality of the test one plus:

+ New format of transmitter file which initially loads and can look
up data more quickly.

+ Regional transmitter lists.

+ Transmitter group lists.

+ List of transmitters in distance order from the receiver out to
100km.

+ List of the likeliest strongest signals from the above - this
works down the distance list looking at relays until either it has
covered five or encounters a main transmitter, then works down the
rest of the list looking at main transmitters until it has covered
five or encounters the end of the list. For each transmitter found,
it looks at the signals currently broadcasting (but perhaps it should
also include post-DSO, even where that is still some years away?
Currently it doesn't!) attenuates them for distance, and for those
that are above the approximate minimum of 54dBuV/m for analogue or
47dBuV/m for digital(*A), it goes and gets path profile information
and attenuates the signals for obstructions. Any having transmissions
remaining above the minima are listed.

+ Options to switch the OS map between showing the signal path and
whatever of the above transmitter lists is currently selected in the
form.

+ Ability to be used with greatly reduced functionality anywhere
world-wide.


The new Terrestrial TV section has some glaring omissions which I'm
aware of:

1 General Introduction

- Nothing about how to make a link between the output of the
official postcode checker, or equivalent such as my own calculator,
and what aerial needs to be chosen (beyond my knowledge, constructive
suggestions welcome).

2 Calculator

- No transmitter coverage maps - Ofcom have said that they'll only
release them for each area some time after its DSO, by which time the
major need for them will have passed! Also, the ones I've seen don't
actually look detailed enough to be very useful, and I don't think
could be used as a basis for calculations.

*A Formerly I have been quoting figures in dBm/m2, which I rather
confusingly abbreviated to dBm, apologies for any confusion caused.

But that's the least of it - mega blush time: Around February I
gave out some figures that were so wrong I'm surprised that someone
from the group didn't jump down my throat about them. I'd copied a
calculation from one piece of code working in metres to another
working in km, without noticing the difference in units, so for about
two to four weeks, I'm not sure how long exactly, the prototype was
systematically out by 60! Two people asking the group for help were
affected, one from Ayr who was wondering whether he might be able to
get HD from Black Hill, and the other had a Southampton postcode and
was walled in by high ground - as the *relative* ordering of the
likely transmitters I gave was not affected, I don't think the error
changed anything for them much, but mega apologies anyway.

Realisation of the above has caused me to go searching back and check
all the other results I've quoted, and allowing for differences in the
units and minor improvements in the methods of processing the terrain
profiles, they seem to be consistent with current results.

[[e-mail]]

       http://www.macfh.co.uk/Test/UKTerrestrialTVTest.html

I say, that's rather splendid. What a lot of work though! Can I tell
my aerial rigging chums about it?

Bill

[Java Jive]

Of course.

Although I was hoping that pros like yourself would have something,
good or bad as long as it's constructive, to say about the more
developed version on the main site (the one you get to by following
this munged address - remove the spaces and the line-break).

Post by Java Jive
h t t p : / / w w w . macfh . co . uk /
JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/TerrestrialTV/TerrestrialTV.html
I say, that's rather splendid. What a lot of work though! Can I tell
my aerial rigging chums about it?

[Steve Thackery]

Just a quick observation: opening either page in my browser pegs one of the
processor cores at (or near) 100%.

It may well just be a glitch in my browser, but I thought I'd mention it.

OS is Windows 7 32-bit. Browser is Opera 10.53.

SteveT

[Java Jive]

On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 09:32:28 +0100, "Steve Thackery"

Post by Steve Thackery
Just a quick observation: opening either page in my browser pegs one of the
processor cores at (or near) 100%.

Thanks for the feedback, but can you clarify? Which two of
1) /JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/SatelliteTV/SatelliteCalculator.html
... and ...
2) /Test/UKTerrestrialTVTest.html
... and ...
3) /JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/TerrestrialTV/TerrestrialCalculator.html

Also, as per the description below, are you allowing the scripts to
complete?

Post by Steve Thackery
It may well just be a glitch in my browser, but I thought I'd mention it.

Glad you did.

Post by Steve Thackery
OS is Windows 7 32-bit.

I've done quite a log of testing with IE8 on my now expired W7 beta,
on an old and slow PIII (1MHz).

I find that 2) as it loads throws up messages about a script making
the computer run slowly, but if I keep telling it to carry on, it
eventually completes the job and thereafter works ok. The same thing
happens if I choose the UK National List option in 3). From this, I
conclude that the messages are being caused by the time taken to load
the name and ngr of 1129 transmitters into a <select> tag. If I
remove the <meta> tag that forces IE7 Compatibility View, the problem
goes away (probably because the IE8 JavaScript interpreter seems to
run a lot faster than the IE6/7 one used in Compatibility View), but
then neither Google nor OL mapping works properly.

It also doesn't happen on either of my 3GHz P4s. Accordingly, I
presumed it was the size of the list combined with the slowness of the
machine that was the problem, and that, as all my PCs are getting long
in the tooth, most people would have more recent, and therefore
faster, ones that wouldn't have any problems.

Post by Steve Thackery
Browser is Opera 10.53.

I've been watching the problems with that browser in the Opera ngs.
I've done a lot of testing with 9.64, but almost none on 10. I'll do
some today and see what happens.

Thanks again, but please clarify which two pages you mean, and whether
you are letting scripts complete, or aborting them.

[Java Jive]

Post by Java Jive

Post by Steve Thackery
Browser is Opera 10.53.

I've been watching the problems with that browser in the Opera ngs.
I've done a lot of testing with 9.64, but almost none on 10. I'll do
some today and see what happens.

Jeez, I don't believe it. The stupid f**kers have pissed around with
the onreadystatechange event AGAIN! Last time, it took me at least
two months to sort the conflicting requirement of Opera 9.64, IE6/7
and IE8!

JavaScript
Event thread: BeforeEventListener.readystatechange
Opera applied workaround against double readystate events. See
browser.js for details

The only details in browser.js which can be deduced as being relevant
without spending some time on the code is a single comment:
// Sending an extra onreadystatechange causes some ad scripts to eat
memory

So what it looks like is that because their last broken incarnation of
onreadystatechange event in 9.64 broke some ad scripts, they've broken
it differently this time!

I'm afraid I have no quick fix except reverting to 9.64 or using a
different browser altogether. Meanwhile, I'll see what I can do.

[Java Jive]

The message below was a distracting blind alley.

It's actually a memory management problem, or else something very like
it. I'm pretty certain it's not down to my code, so I've reported it
to Opera as bug DSK-301278.

I don't think there's very much more I can do.

Post by Java Jive
JavaScript
Event thread: BeforeEventListener.readystatechange
Opera applied workaround against double readystate events. See
browser.js for details

[Ian Jackson]

Post by Java Jive

Post by Java Jive
JavaScript
Event thread: BeforeEventListener.readystatechange
Opera applied workaround against double readystate events. See
browser.js for details

The message below was a distracting blind alley.
It's actually a memory management problem, or else something very like
it. I'm pretty certain it's not down to my code, so I've reported it
to Opera as bug DSK-301278.
I don't think there's very much more I can do.

Neither seem to work with Safari (other than displaying the initial
page).

[Steve Thackery]

Post by Java Jive
It's actually a memory management problem, or else something very like
it. I'm pretty certain it's not down to my code, so I've reported it
to Opera as bug DSK-301278.
I don't think there's very much more I can do.

JJ: I'm really impressed by how quickly you followed this up. On the whole,
Opera is a great browser, but obviously not perfect.

Personally I wouldn't spend too much time kludging your script just to suit
Opera - it has a pretty small user base.

SteveT

[Java Jive]

On Mon, 7 Jun 2010 10:20:43 +0100, "Steve Thackery"

Post by Steve Thackery

Post by Java Jive
It's actually a memory management problem, or else something very like
it. I'm pretty certain it's not down to my code, so I've reported it
to Opera as bug DSK-301278.
I don't think there's very much more I can do.

JJ: I'm really impressed by how quickly you followed this up. On the whole,
Opera is a great browser, but obviously not perfect.

Can't get on with it myself. It requires so much obscure
configuration just to make it look and feel like a normal browser.
However, because it's in some ways like a better-behaved and more
compliant IE, it's very useful for testing. Quite fast at some
things, too.

Post by Steve Thackery
Personally I wouldn't spend too much time kludging your script just to suit
Opera - it has a pretty small user base.

Yes, I counted, IIRC, about 12 or 13 hits from about 5 O10 users on
the affected pages. If it turns out to be a choice between having IE8
or O10 work, I'm afraid it's a no-brainer!

However, as an experiment, I republished the old page and all the old
supporting scripts on my old, ISP-hosted site, just to see what would
happen in O10. Too my surprise it loaded ok. Then by a process of
elimination changing one script at a time, I nailed it to a O10's
running of particular function in the new form-handling script.

So, although I still think it's an Opera10 issue, this discovery
suggests that I might be able to find a workaround, though two or
three things I tried yesterday didn't work! :-(

[Roderick Stewart]

Post by Java Jive

Post by Steve Thackery

Post by Java Jive
It's actually a memory management problem, or else something very like
it. I'm pretty certain it's not down to my code, so I've reported it
to Opera as bug DSK-301278.
I don't think there's very much more I can do.

JJ: I'm really impressed by how quickly you followed this up. On the whole,
Opera is a great browser, but obviously not perfect.

Can't get on with it myself. It requires so much obscure
configuration just to make it look and feel like a normal browser.
However, because it's in some ways like a better-behaved and more
compliant IE, it's very useful for testing. Quite fast at some
things, too.

I'm not surprised it's fast, given that it's the only modern browser I could
find that would run *at all* on an old Windows 98 PC, suggesting it makes fewewr
demands on the system. The Linux version is *very* fast.

Maybe this is also helped by the fact that Opera is still relatively unknown, so
that other programs don't install their own add-ons and extra toolbars, as they
all seem to do with IE and Firefox.

Rod.

[Java Jive]

Well, here's a fix that will allow those particularly interested to
load all three calculator pages into Opera 10, but, although it's
simple enough, it's not one I would expect the average user to
discover or wish to be bothered with ...

Preferably before loading any of the pages, but it can be done (albeit
more slowly because the CPU is maxed) afterwards, choose Tools,
Advanced, Developer Tools from the menu bar, which you will have to
make visible of course. Dragonfly will load and inset a debugging
window at the bottom of the screen, and perhaps turn the page a funny
shade of blue, both of which can be ignored.

(Re)load the page. Just the debugging tools being in place will now
enable the exsting code to load successfully, although there may be
some spurious warning messages in the error console, which can also be
ignored. Once loading has completed, close Dragonfly by clicking the
red cross at the top right hand of the inset window.

The calculator should now be usable pretty normally. However, before
causing a reload of the page, for example by pressing Submit, reopen
the debugging tools as above.

Post by Java Jive
So, although I still think it's an Opera10 issue, this discovery
suggests that I might be able to find a workaround, though two or
three things I tried yesterday didn't work! :-(

[Steve Thackery]

Post by Java Jive
Can't get on with it myself. It requires so much obscure
configuration just to make it look and feel like a normal browser.

I wonder what you mean. I just customised the toolbar, hid the menu bar,
and that was it. There are all sorts of arcane settings, but I've never
needed them.

Post by Java Jive
However, because it's in some ways like a better-behaved and more
compliant IE, it's very useful for testing.

Blimey, I can't think of a browser more different from IE than Opera! It's
platform independent, it pioneered tabbed browsing and mouse gestures, and
uses no IE DLLs.

So, your comments leave me puzzled, but of course our preferences in
browsers isn't really important! By the way, don't forget that many
installations of Opera (don't know how many) are set to identify themselves
as IE, so your figures *might* be misleading.

Thanks for putting all this effort in, though. I'm happy to stick to IE for
your site!

StevbeT

[Java Jive]

On Mon, 7 Jun 2010 16:48:19 +0100, "Steve Thackery"

Post by Steve Thackery
I wonder what you mean. I just customised the toolbar, hid the menu bar,
and that was it. There are all sorts of arcane settings, but I've never
needed them.

http://groups.google.com/group/opera.general/browse_thread/thread/fc3cebd03e663c89/4d7faed9d327c3bb

Post by Steve Thackery

Post by Java Jive
However, because it's in some ways like a better-behaved and more
compliant IE, it's very useful for testing.

Blimey, I can't think of a browser more different from IE than Opera! It's
platform independent, it pioneered tabbed browsing and mouse gestures, and
uses no IE DLLs.

Under the bonnet, where there's a choice between an IE-compliant name
or functionality and an alternative or W3C compliant name or
functionality, it often follows IE. For example:

* Choosing a different value in a <select> tag fires 'onchange'
every time the selection is changed, not when the user confirms the
change by leaving the tag. This means that if the user selects a
different choice, but then changes his/her mind and reselects the
original choice, leaving it effectively unchanged, two onchange events
are fired! In my view, this is nonsensical, and with others such as
FF firing it on leaving the tag only if the selection has changed
(*1), it's effectively impossible to program consistent cross-browser
behaviour for select tags.

*1 Though in a way FF is even worse, for when the mouse is being
used, it behaves just like IE, but when the keyboard is being used, it
behaves desirably as described above.

* Like IE, it fires 'onreadystatechange' events rather than 'onload'
events for external resource loading, and like IE, it fires different
sequences of events depending on whether the resource is being loaded
for the first time, or from cache, and whether the page is being
returned to with the back or forward button, or whether the 'refresh'
button has been clicked, but just to be different, it fires the events
with some different status values! By contrast, FF3 fires the same,
single, easily programmable 'onload' event under all these subtly
different situations.

Post by Steve Thackery
So, your comments leave me puzzled, but of course our preferences in
browsers isn't really important! By the way, don't forget that many
installations of Opera (don't know how many) are set to identify themselves
as IE, so your figures *might* be misleading.

When Opera tries to spoof it nearly always has Opera somewhere in the
Agent header, so is usually easily detected by website-counter
software.

Post by Steve Thackery
Thanks for putting all this effort in, though. I'm happy to stick to IE for
your site!

Thanks for the thanks. I think I will have to try and find a solution
to this problem though, now that I've discovered that at least one
other browser is affected.

[Mike Henry]

Post by Java Jive
When Opera tries to spoof it nearly always has Opera somewhere in the
Agent header, so is usually easily detected by website-counter
software.

It has two settings - spoof and masquerade. In Masquerade mode the headers
will be identicle to IE's (masquerade was added because some sites which
block functionality based on what browser you're using, instead of which
features your browser has, didn't believe the spoofed headers).

[Steve Thackery]

Post by Java Jive
Under the bonnet, where there's a choice between an IE-compliant name
or functionality and an alternative or W3C compliant name or

That's really fascinating stuff. Thanks, JJ!

SteveT

[Java Jive]

Just installed Safari and Chrome on the W7 slow coach ...

In order to accomodate all the differences between browsers,
JavaScript usually has a number of statements like:

if( /* an object has a particular property */ )
// Assign it some value
else if( /* a particular function exists */ )
// Call the function

I'm doing something very similar with an object of my own creation.

I found one 'fault' (by which I mean what I would consider a
misinterpretation by Safari of a valid statement such as above), which
I've fixed on the website on my PC, now it seems to be having similar
problems to O10.

That problem is also a function with several such statements. There's
obviously something about that piece of code that some browsers don't
like, but I can't see anything wrong with it, and every time I've
tried to 'phrase it differently', as it were, it doesn't fix the
problem.

The really odd thing is, it's not failing the first time the function
is called, that would be far too simple, but the 3rd or 4th time,
leaving one wondering how the code can be correct the first few times,
and not subsequently.

But I'll keep trying things out until something good happens.

Post by Ian Jackson
Neither seem to work with Safari (other than displaying the initial
page).

[Ian Jackson]

Post by Java Jive

Post by Ian Jackson
Neither seem to work with Safari (other than displaying the initial
page).

Just installed Safari and Chrome on the W7 slow coach ...
In order to accomodate all the differences between browsers,
if( /* an object has a particular property */ )
// Assign it some value
else if( /* a particular function exists */ )
// Call the function
I'm doing something very similar with an object of my own creation.
I found one 'fault' (by which I mean what I would consider a
misinterpretation by Safari of a valid statement such as above), which
I've fixed on the website on my PC, now it seems to be having similar
problems to O10.
That problem is also a function with several such statements. There's
obviously something about that piece of code that some browsers don't
like, but I can't see anything wrong with it, and every time I've
tried to 'phrase it differently', as it were, it doesn't fix the
problem.
The really odd thing is, it's not failing the first time the function
is called, that would be far too simple, but the 3rd or 4th time,
leaving one wondering how the code can be correct the first few times,
and not subsequently.
But I'll keep trying things out until something good happens.

All noted, but little understood!
But I'm happy with it being OK in IE8.

[David WE Roberts]

Post by Java Jive
In the past few days I've released updated versions ...

<snip>

Post by Java Jive
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Test/UKTerrestrialTVTest.html

<massive snip>

Nice.
It dows show that the transmission path from the back of my house goes
through the houses further down the street.
I am now wondering how the aerials that some people have fixed at gutter
height at the back of their houses actually see the transmitter.
Which is a shame, because that looked like an easy way to avoid climbing up
the chimney to replace the old aerial.

Cheers

Dave R

[tony sayer]

Post by David WE Roberts

Post by Java Jive
In the past few days I've released updated versions ...

<snip>

Post by Java Jive
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Test/UKTerrestrialTVTest.html

<massive snip>
Nice.
It dows show that the transmission path from the back of my house goes
through the houses further down the street.
I am now wondering how the aerials that some people have fixed at gutter
height at the back of their houses actually see the transmitter.
Which is a shame, because that looked like an easy way to avoid climbing up
the chimney to replace the old aerial.
Cheers
Dave R

As good and useful as this calculator is it can't show up what's known
as "Urban clutter" thats the buildings and other obstructions that are
around which help to attenuate (sod up) the available signal. Clutter
databases are available but you won't find then for free!..

However its a very useful indicator of what can be done.

Was playing around with it the other day and found that you can drag the
transmitter around on the map but can't alter its height . Not a lot of
use to most but oddly enough useful to some:)...

[Java Jive]

Post by tony sayer
As good and useful as this calculator is it can't show up what's known
as "Urban clutter" thats the buildings and other obstructions that are
around which help to attenuate (sod up) the available signal. Clutter
databases are available but you won't find then for free!..

Yes, I hope this is explained adequately on both the Introduction and
the new Calculator pages. The lack of transmitter radiation patterns,
intervening clutter data, as well as an allowance for changing
atmospheric conditions over time, probably (perhaps 'almost certainly'
would be more accurate) make the results optimistic.

Post by tony sayer
However its a very useful indicator of what can be done.

Thanks.

Post by tony sayer
Was playing around with it the other day and found that you can drag the
transmitter around on the map but can't alter its height . Not a lot of
use to most but oddly enough useful to some:)...

You can, but you have to choose a non-UK transmitter list option. If
you wanted to amend the height of one of the known UK TXs for your
calculation, you could, IIRC, choose it from on of the lists to set up
its NGR, EN, and LL, then swap the Transmitter Where/How selector to
UK Grid Reference, whereupon you should be able to enter a height (m
AOD) manually. BTW, the actual transmitter heights quoted are
averages over the published analogue, pre-DSO, and post-DSO data.

[Java Jive]

NOTICE:

Apparently the Ordnance Survey servers are down at the moment (midday
7/6/2010), which means no OS maps in any of the Calculators or demos
on my site.

Post by Java Jive
In the past few days I've released updated versions ...
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/SatelliteTV/SatelliteCalculator.html
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Test/UKTerrestrialTVTest.html
h t t p : / / w w w . macfh . co . uk /
JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/TerrestrialTV/TerrestrialTV.html

[Java Jive]

Maps now seeming to load OK, though I couldn't get into the forum this
evening (7/6/2010) to confirm status.

Post by Java Jive
Apparently the Ordnance Survey servers are down at the moment (midday
7/6/2010), which means no OS maps in any of the Calculators or demos
on my site.

Post by Java Jive
In the past few days I've released updated versions ...
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/SatelliteTV/SatelliteCalculator.html
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Test/UKTerrestrialTVTest.html
h t t p : / / w w w . macfh . co . uk /
JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/TerrestrialTV/TerrestrialTV.html

[Java Jive]

Released new versions of all three calculators overnight, version
notes are appended. Unless anyone feels the pages require
improvement, I intend to allow access to the new Terrestrial TV
section next weekend, including the new version of the Terrestrial TV
calculator. Attempts to load the old one will thereafter redirect
automatically to the new one. Any thoughts?

Latest versions ...

Chrome and Safari

Both Chrome and Safari will now run all three calculators. You will
need to ensure that you get the new files from the server, avoiding
cached versions. This can usually be done by <shift-F5> or
<shift-Reload>. If that doesn't work, though I think it should, you
will have to clear the browser's cache. However, Safari may not print
the Google map properly, and, while Chrome will at least print
everything, it will waste a sheet of paper in so doing.

Opera 10

Opera 10's problem with max CPU on loading these pages looks like it's
fundamental to the browser, and therefore beyond my responsibility to
fix ...

1 No amount of writing the code differently has cured the problem.

2 No other browser has trouble with that section of code, not even
earlier versions of Opera - I've now got six other browsers working
with these pages, including Opera 9.64.

3 The problem goes away if the pages are loaded after opening the
Dragonfly debugger. No actual debugging is required, the opening of
the debugger is enough. To open the debugger, choose Tools, Advanced,
Developer Tools from the main menu bar, which of course you will first
have to make visible.

4 It may well be related to or the same problem as Opera 10 is
currently having loading the BBC Home Page, as the same fix cures
both: Disable EcmaScriptJIT. To do this, type or copy'n'paste the
following into the address bar and press Return. Uncheck the option
and click Save. Restart Opera 10. You will now be able to load the
BBC Home Page and all three of the calculator pages into Opera 10.

opera:config#Extensions|EcmaScriptJIT

Note: No version of Opera yet prints the markers on the maps
properly.

Post by Java Jive
In the past few days I've released updated versions ...
h t t p : / / w w w . macfh . co . uk /
JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/TerrestrialTV/TerrestrialTV.html
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/SatelliteTV/SatelliteCalculator.html
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Test/UKTerrestrialTVTest.html

[Steve Thackery]

Post by Java Jive
Opera 10's problem with max CPU on loading these pages looks like it's
fundamental to the browser, and therefore beyond my responsibility to
fix ...

This is great work, JJ - you've put an enormous amount of effort into this.

May I suggest you report the "100%" bug to Opera? I'd do so myself, but of
course you could give a far more detailed description. I certainly think
it's worth listing the other six browsers which handle it OK - it should
dissuade the usual "by design" response.

Post by Java Jive
4 It may well be related to or the same problem as Opera 10 is
currently having loading the BBC Home Page, as the same fix cures
both: Disable EcmaScriptJIT.

Well, http://www.bbc.co.uk/ seems to work OK for me. What unwanted side
effects (or loss of functionality) will disabling EcmaScriptJIT have?

Thanks again for an amazing piece of work.

SteveT

[Java Jive]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 09:35:30 +0100, "Steve Thackery"

Post by Steve Thackery
This is great work, JJ - you've put an enormous amount of effort into this.
May I suggest you report the "100%" bug to Opera? I'd do so myself, but of
course you could give a far more detailed description. I certainly think
it's worth listing the other six browsers which handle it OK - it should
dissuade the usual "by design" response.

I think it's slipped your mind that I'd already done so. However, the
point is valid, so I've just sent to the bug email address a complete
description of what more I've discovered and an updated file set.

However, while Opera allow the reporting of bugs, and supply a
mechanism to add further details, files, etc, for security reasons
(their explanation) there is no mechanism to track what is being done
about them. AFAIAA, previous bugs I have reported have not been
addressed at all. For example, I'm pretty certain I reported the
missing map markers on print out in Opera 9 about a year ago, but have
heard nothing since, and Opera 10 still has the same problem.

So I'm afraid it's a black hole from here on in!

Post by Steve Thackery

Post by Java Jive
4 It may well be related to or the same problem as Opera 10 is
currently having loading the BBC Home Page, as the same fix cures
both: Disable EcmaScriptJIT.

Well, http://www.bbc.co.uk/ seems to work OK for me. What unwanted side
effects (or loss of functionality) will disabling EcmaScriptJIT have?

Sorry, my mistake, it's not the BBC Home page:

http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2010/06/08/more-bug-fixing

(about half way down , or search the page for EcmaScriptJIT.

Post by Steve Thackery
Thanks again for an amazing piece of work.

Glad that it's appreciated. Hope it's useful.

[zedkay]

Post by Java Jive
In the past few days I've released updated versions ...
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/SatelliteTV/SatelliteCalculator.html
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Test/UKTerrestrialTVTest.html
... and there's now something like an intended final version of the
Aerial Alignment Calculator in the new Terrestrial TV section of the
site (addressed munged because I don't want search engines to find it
until anyone here who chooses has had a chance to rip it to bits first
- for the same reason it's not yet linked from the rest of the site,
you can get out, but not back in) ...

Hi, I typed in Liege as a place name, and had results for towns in the
USA. I punched in Luik, and had 'Liege, Wallon Region, BE'. Strange.
Otherwise, good job.

[Java Jive]

Post by zedkay
Hi, I typed in Liege as a place name, and had results for towns in the
USA. I punched in Luik, and had 'Liege, Wallon Region, BE'. Strange.

Yes, as I mention in the Help somewhere, the World (Google) Search
option is US-centric. If you want to look up a placename elsewhere,
you need to supply some country information. Eg (I haven't
necessarily tried these, I'm guessing):

Cork, Eire
Avignon, France
St Helier, GB or St Helier, UK ( I can't recall which, but I do recall
that St Helier CI doesn't work)

etc.

Post by zedkay
Otherwise, good job.

Thanks.

[Charles Ellson]

Post by Java Jive

Post by zedkay
Hi, I typed in Liege as a place name, and had results for towns in the
USA. I punched in Luik, and had 'Liege, Wallon Region, BE'. Strange.

Yes, as I mention in the Help somewhere, the World (Google) Search
option is US-centric. If you want to look up a placename elsewhere,
you need to supply some country information. Eg (I haven't
Cork, Eire

Cork, Ireland or Corcaigh, Eire

Post by Java Jive
Avignon, France
St Helier, GB or St Helier, UK ( I can't recall which, but I do recall
that St Helier CI doesn't work)

The correct "St Helier, Jersey" (it is not in GB/UK) works, believe it
or not. The Channel Islands is not a single entity but a group of
entities IYSWIM.

Post by Java Jive
etc.

Post by zedkay
Otherwise, good job.

Thanks.

[Peter Duncanson]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 21:58:40 +0100, Charles Ellson

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Java Jive

Post by zedkay
Hi, I typed in Liege as a place name, and had results for towns in the
USA. I punched in Luik, and had 'Liege, Wallon Region, BE'. Strange.

Yes, as I mention in the Help somewhere, the World (Google) Search
option is US-centric. If you want to look up a placename elsewhere,
you need to supply some country information. Eg (I haven't
Cork, Eire

Cork, Ireland or Corcaigh, Eire

Post by Java Jive
Avignon, France
St Helier, GB or St Helier, UK ( I can't recall which, but I do recall
that St Helier CI doesn't work)

The correct "St Helier, Jersey" (it is not in GB/UK) works, believe it
or not. The Channel Islands is not a single entity but a group of
entities IYSWIM.

The do not form a single entity for governmental purposes, but together
they are the Duchy of Normandy (as it exists today).
http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/QueenandCrowndependencies/ChannelIslands.aspx

Post by Charles Ellson

Post by Java Jive
etc.

Post by zedkay
Otherwise, good job.

Thanks.

[André Coutanche]

Post by Peter Duncanson
The do not form a single entity for governmental purposes, but
together they are the Duchy of Normandy (as it exists today).
http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/QueenandCrowndependencies/ChannelIslands.aspx

Well, I know that they should know, but ...

As a Guernseyman, I can say that the Royal Toast in Guernsey is NOT 'The
Duke of Normandy, our Queen', but 'The Queen, our Duke'. And I seriously
doubt the statement that 'since that time [1106], the English Sovereign has
always held the title Duke of Normandy'. As for the statement that 'In the
Channel Islands The Queen is known as The Duke of Normandy', that's simply
wrong. She is known as the Queen.

Wikipedia seems to be a better bet, when it says 'the islands were formerly
part of the Duchy of Normandy, the rest of which was renounced in 1259'.

André Coutanche

[Peter Duncanson]

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 12:52:58 +0100, "André Coutanche"

Post by André Coutanche

Post by Peter Duncanson
The do not form a single entity for governmental purposes, but
together they are the Duchy of Normandy (as it exists today).
http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/QueenandCrowndependencies/ChannelIslands.aspx

Well, I know that they should know, but ...
As a Guernseyman, I can say that the Royal Toast in Guernsey is NOT 'The
Duke of Normandy, our Queen', but 'The Queen, our Duke'. And I seriously
doubt the statement that 'since that time [1106], the English Sovereign has
always held the title Duke of Normandy'. As for the statement that 'In the
Channel Islands The Queen is known as The Duke of Normandy', that's simply
wrong. She is known as the Queen.
Wikipedia seems to be a better bet, when it says 'the islands were formerly
part of the Duchy of Normandy, the rest of which was renounced in 1259'.

Interesting.

You could pass on those comments to the Royal Household's Website Team
at ***@royal.gsx.gov.uk

http://www.royal.gov.uk/Contactus/ContacttheWebsiteTeam.aspx

I reported a spelling mistake a few years ago and it was corrected the
same day. Obviously changes to factual information would take longer.

[André Coutanche]

<snip>

Post by Peter Duncanson

Post by André Coutanche
Wikipedia seems to be a better bet, when it says 'the islands were
formerly part of the Duchy of Normandy, the rest of which was
renounced in 1259'.

Interesting.
You could pass on those comments to the Royal Household's Website Team

Good point - done!

André Coutanche

[Java Jive]

Post by Java Jive
... and there's now something like an intended final version of the
Aerial Alignment Calculator in the new Terrestrial TV section of the
site (addressed munged because I don't want search engines to find it
until anyone here who chooses has had a chance to rip it to bits first
- for the same reason it's not yet linked from the rest of the site,
you can get out, but not back in) ...
h t t p : / / w w w . macfh . co . uk /
JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/TerrestrialTV/TerrestrialTV.html

B*mmer! Despite my precautions, Yahoo have somehow found the new
section, so last night, earlier than I really wanted to, I had to
update the site navigation to include the pages. They'll all find it
now.

This is annoying, because there all still a couple of questions to
resolve, on which I would be grateful for opinions ...

1)

Post by Java Jive
For each transmitter found,
it looks at the signals currently broadcasting (but perhaps it should
also include post-DSO, even where that is still some years away?
Currently it doesn't!)

Should the 'Find the likeliest signals" options also search post-DSO
signals in areas so far from DSO that there isn't full published data
for all the relays? Currently, it only includes post-DSO data for a
transmitter once DSO has begun for the transmitter. This ensures that
full data is available, but is no help to anyone trying to plan ahead.
However, if it were to incudle post-DSO data for a transmitters before
its DSO, there is no easy way that I can see to ensure that the
information is likely to be accurate, because it will often be the
case that a local relay whose data is not yet published will give a
better signal after DSO.

Thoughts?

2)

Post by Java Jive
The new Terrestrial TV section has some glaring omissions which I'm
1 General Introduction
- Nothing about how to make a link between the output of the
official postcode checker, or equivalent such as my own calculator,
and what aerial needs to be chosen (beyond my knowledge, constructive
suggestions welcome).

Any suggestions? Or should I just point punters to
uk.tech.digital-tv?

Post by Java Jive
- Unfortunately I cannot easily implement compression, which I
wanted, without changing hosting provider, so that hasn't happened yet

Discovered a potential fix to the major stumbling block, and was
hoping to get it working on the new section of the site before opening
it up :-(

[Andy Burns]

Post by Java Jive

Post by Java Jive
h t t p : / / w w w . macfh . co . uk /
JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/TerrestrialTV/TerrestrialTV.html

B*mmer! Despite my precautions, Yahoo have somehow found the new
section, so last night, earlier than I really wanted to, I had to
update the site navigation to include the pages. They'll all find it
now.

Is the signal profile button meant to work yet? it seems to draw a
rectangle with the words signal path and that's about all ...

FF3.5.9 on Linux.

[Java Jive]

Spent the day trying to investigate this, but only got as far as being
able to confirm that you're right, certainly the profile display is
not working in FF under Linux.

However, when I tried to debug and step through the process FF2
couldn't handle it. When I tried to install FF3, I got bogged down in
a dependency mire, and now no version works. I'm currently
downloading a live DVD to see what I can do with that, but that is
currently saying that it'll take 2 days!

Meanwhile, can you help me to help you?

1) What else in either of the Terrestrial Calculators doesn't work?

In particular, what happens when you choose the 'Likeliest
Transmitters' option in the new version? Does it complete and achieve
a sensible result? (The same data is used by the profile and that
option, so that'll give a clue as to where the problem lies.)

2) Is there anything in the Satellite Calculator that doesn't work?

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:46:40 +0100, Andy Burns

Post by Andy Burns
Is the signal profile button meant to work yet? it seems to draw a
rectangle with the words signal path and that's about all ...
FF3.5.9 on Linux.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Java Jive
Spent the day trying to investigate this, but only got as far as being
able to confirm that you're right, certainly the profile display is
not working in FF under Linux.

I was only interested to compare it with the (inconvenient for many
people) postscript file that wolfbane provides.

Post by Java Jive
However, when I tried to debug and step through the process FF2
couldn't handle it. When I tried to install FF3, I got bogged down in
a dependency mire, and now no version works. I'm currently
downloading a live DVD to see what I can do with that, but that is
currently saying that it'll take 2 days!

What distro still has FF2?

Post by Java Jive
Meanwhile, can you help me to help you?
1) What else in either of the Terrestrial Calculators doesn't work?

Not spotted anything else so far.

Post by Java Jive
In particular, what happens when you choose the 'Likeliest
Transmitters' option in the new version? Does it complete and achieve
a sensible result? (The same data is used by the profile and that
option, so that'll give a clue as to where the problem lies.)

Funny you should mention that, I do know the sensible transmitters for
my location, but I let it choose the likely one based on postcode, for a
few seconds I thought it had chosen crystal palace, but then after a
quite a few seconds it refreshed and plumped for waltham (correctly).

Post by Java Jive
2) Is there anything in the Satellite Calculator that doesn't work?

Not tried that yet.

[Java Jive]

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 20:45:43 +0100, Andy Burns

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Java Jive
Spent the day trying to investigate this, but only got as far as being
able to confirm that you're right, certainly the profile display is
not working in FF under Linux.

I was only interested to compare it with the (inconvenient for many
people) postscript file that wolfbane provides.

Post by Java Jive
However, when I tried to debug and step through the process FF2
couldn't handle it. When I tried to install FF3, I got bogged down in
a dependency mire, and now no version works. I'm currently
downloading a live DVD to see what I can do with that, but that is
currently saying that it'll take 2 days!

What distro still has FF2?

A very old minimalist Mandrive 2006 with Ice WM that I used to use to
iron out the worst bugs in my Dreambox.

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Java Jive
Meanwhile, can you help me to help you?
1) What else in either of the Terrestrial Calculators doesn't work?

Not spotted anything else so far.

Phew!

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Java Jive
In particular, what happens when you choose the 'Likeliest
Transmitters' option in the new version? Does it complete and achieve
a sensible result? (The same data is used by the profile and that
option, so that'll give a clue as to where the problem lies.)

Funny you should mention that, I do know the sensible transmitters for
my location, but I let it choose the likely one based on postcode, for a
few seconds I thought it had chosen crystal palace, but then after a
quite a few seconds it refreshed and plumped for waltham (correctly).

It does take a while. That's good though, quite encouraging. One
last check, if you'd be so kind, this is what you should get if you
try CB5 8HQ:

Transmitters with the likeliest strongest signals for location
Lat: 52.210054, Lon: 0.137931
Transmitter Distance Best Analog Best Pre-DSO
Sandy Heath 17.10mi 83.5dBµV/m 66.5dBµV/m
Waltham 56.92mi 59.1dBµV/m 45.1dBµV/m
Tacolneston 47.37mi 56.5dBµV/m 42.5dBµV/m

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Java Jive
2) Is there anything in the Satellite Calculator that doesn't work?

Not tried that yet.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Java Jive
CB5 8HQ

Yep that gives the results you expected, a couple of links elsewhere
look a bit odd ...

1 Mounting A Terrestrial TV Aerial In The UK, 1 General Introduction, 2 DIY

2 Mounting A Terrestrial TV Aerial In The UK, 3 Alignment Settings
Calculator

So that link one includes sections one and two, and link two is section
three

[Java Jive]

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 22:48:43 +0100, Andy Burns

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Java Jive
CB5 8HQ

Yep that gives the results you expected

Good! I've had my hopes dashed by browsers too many times to count
chickens, but it's just possible that for once this one may actually
prove quite quick to fix.

Quick once I've got FF3 running on Linux, that is ...

Just reinstalled Mandriva 2006, and the RPM manager appears to be
utterly hopeless. I've not been able to find a way of making it
install an RPM I've already downloaded, let alone search the web for
any. :-(

I've aborted the DVD download and am going for an FTP install instead,
as hopefully that will be quicker.

Good job I've always had a policy with both Linux and Windows of
keeping my data on a different drive or partition than the system!

Post by Andy Burns
a couple of links elsewhere
look a bit odd ...
1 Mounting A Terrestrial TV Aerial In The UK, 1 General Introduction, 2 DIY
2 Mounting A Terrestrial TV Aerial In The UK, 3 Alignment Settings
Calculator
So that link one includes sections one and two, and link two is section
three

Yes, I've noticed those, and already fixed those on my PC, but not
published the changes yet. It happened because originally the first
page was going to be just one section, not two.

Thanks for your help with this Andy. I'll see what I can do to fix it
and report back to group.

[Java Jive]

A surprise! I've finally got Suse 11.2 and FF3.5.4 up and running
(what a fatuous palaver that all was), and there's no problem there -
both the Aerial Schematic and the Signal Profile come up 'bootiful'.

So that was a complete waste of 2-3 days waiting for downloads and so
on and so forth, and I've buggered my Linux install as well. But,
hey, you're not interested in that :-(

Favourites for this problem are:

1) The length of the URLs involved in the Aerial Schematic and the
Signal Profile. I might be able to do something about this if I am
absolutely certain it's the cause of the problem.

2) The way src of the image tag is being set programmatically -
currently it's simply img.src = longURL, but there is an alternative
of img.setAttribute( "src", longURL ). It could be that some browsers
work better with one than t'other. Rather against this though is that
you would expect the same browser on different operating systems (OSs)
to share as much code as possible, with only differences at a
comparatively low-level to work together with different OSs, but here
we have FF3 working on both W2000 and Linux Suse 11.2, yet not on
whatever distro you're using. Rather unlikely, it seems to me.

In order to save any more floundering about with Linux distros that
may or may not show the problem, the following test page has 6
numbered images. For each, can you tell me what you see?

(Address munged to foil search engines, since I plan to remove the
test when you've had your say - just remove the spaces)
h t t p : / / w w w . macfh.co.uk/Test/Test.html

TIA

Post by Java Jive
Quick once I've got FF3 running on Linux, that is ...

[Andy Burns]

Post by Java Jive
h t t p : / / w w w . macfh.co.uk/Test/Test.html

Three identical images showing overlap of different aerial groups

And three identical images showing a fresnel(?) pattern of signal
descending from a distant transmitter but ramming into a nearby hill

All on a dark brown (or deep red) background

[Terry Casey]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Java Jive
h t t p : / / w w w . macfh.co.uk/Test/Test.html

Three identical images showing overlap of different aerial groups
And three identical images showing a fresnel(?) pattern of signal
descending from a distant transmitter but ramming into a nearby hill
All on a dark brown (or deep red) background

I agree with that assessment.

My first reaction was that the text in image 1 was less distinct than
the others but when I took a screen dump and magnified it, I couldn't
really see any difference!

[Java Jive]

Errum! B*mmer! That only tells me that it's neither of my two most
likely choice of problems!

Not sure what to try next. One thing that it might help to know
though, I know you gave out FF3.5.9, but what Linux distro and version
are you using?

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 02:07:08 +0100, Andy Burns

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Java Jive
h t t p : / / w w w . macfh.co.uk/Test/Test.html

Three identical images showing overlap of different aerial groups
And three identical images showing a fresnel(?) pattern of signal
descending from a distant transmitter but ramming into a nearby hill
All on a dark brown (or deep red) background

[Andy Burns]

Post by Java Jive
Errum! B*mmer! That only tells me that it's neither of my two most
likely choice of problems!
Not sure what to try next.

Anything I can look at with firebug?

Post by Java Jive
One thing that it might help to know
though, I know you gave out FF3.5.9, but what Linux distro and version
are you using?

Fedora 12, 32 bit

I only have a few extensions (Adblock, firebug, meerkat, useragent
changer, foxmarks)

[Java Jive]

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 12:34:24 +0100, Andy Burns

Post by Andy Burns
Anything I can look at with firebug?

Yes, if you and/or anyone else getting the problem would be so kind,
but I warn in advance that it may be rather tedious! Does your
posting mail address work? If not, get in contact via my sig, and
I'll send some instructions.

Post by Andy Burns
Fedora 12, 32 bit

Ironically, I'm just downloading a Fed13 Live CD now. Hopefully it
will be a little better than Suse.

[Java Jive]

Thanks to Andy's excellent and helpful debugging, the problem was
pinned down to some combination of operating systems, browsers, and
screen resolutions leading to a chart that was bigger than the maximum
size the Google Chart API will support.

Version released a short while ago should fix, and has other minor
improvements.

To get the updated code, you may have to press <Shift F5> or click
<Shift Refresh>.

Thanks again for all your help, Andy.

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 12:34:24 +0100, Andy Burns

Post by Andy Burns
Anything I can look at with firebug?

[Andy Burns]

Post by Java Jive
Thanks to Andy's excellent and helpful debugging, the problem was
pinned down to some combination of operating systems, browsers, and
screen resolutions leading to a chart that was bigger than the maximum
size the Google Chart API will support.

Did you get my email about incorrect distances?

[Java Jive]

Sorry, forgot to open Outlook after a reboot! I've replied now.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:14:21 +0100, Andy Burns

Post by Andy Burns
Did you get my email about incorrect distances?

[tony sayer]

Post by Java Jive
A very old minimalist Mandrive 2006 with Ice WM that I used to use to
iron out the worst bugs in my Dreambox.

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Java Jive
Meanwhile, can you help me to help you?
1) What else in either of the Terrestrial Calculators doesn't work?

Not spotted anything else so far.

Phew!

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Java Jive
In particular, what happens when you choose the 'Likeliest
Transmitters' option in the new version? Does it complete and achieve
a sensible result? (The same data is used by the profile and that
option, so that'll give a clue as to where the problem lies.)

Funny you should mention that, I do know the sensible transmitters for
my location, but I let it choose the likely one based on postcode, for a
few seconds I thought it had chosen crystal palace, but then after a
quite a few seconds it refreshed and plumped for waltham (correctly).

It does take a while. That's good though, quite encouraging. One
last check, if you'd be so kind, this is what you should get if you
Transmitters with the likeliest strongest signals for location
Lat: 52.210054, Lon: 0.137931
Transmitter Distance Best Analog Best Pre-DSO
Sandy Heath 17.10mi 83.5dBμV/m 66.5dBμV/m
Waltham 56.92mi 59.1dBμV/m 45.1dBμV/m
Tacolneston 47.37mi 56.5dBμV/m 42.5dBμV/m

That's riverside in Cambridge just down the road from here. I'd very
much doubt that Waltham would be possible at all there. Even Sudbury
much better in and around Cambridge was U/S there and I can't help but
think that Taccy wouldn't work either or be very, very poor. Even Sandy
heath is a bit "awkward" around there.



And thats even after they pulled the Gas holders down!, course 405 lines
channel 2 was rather good;))...

We used to Use Sudbury in that area to get rid of the Marshal's hanger
ghost which was very bad that side of town,. Course Sudbury was used pre
Sandy for 625 line Colour .. a long while ago now..

Post by Java Jive

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Java Jive
2) Is there anything in the Satellite Calculator that doesn't work?

Not tried that yet.

[Java Jive]

Post by tony sayer
That's riverside in Cambridge just down the road from here.

No, it's Abbey Road. My mother and stepfather used to live in Abbey
House, the "big 'arse" at the top.

Post by tony sayer
I'd very
much doubt that Waltham would be possible at all there. Even Sudbury
much better in and around Cambridge was U/S there and I can't help but
think that Taccy wouldn't work either or be very, very poor. Even Sandy
heath is a bit "awkward" around there.

I can't comment on the more distant two, and I dare say the mega
clutter of Elizabeth Way would indeed effectively block Waltham and
Sandy Heath at the bottom of the road, but my calculator has no
knowledge of clutter even the size of Elizabeth Way!

Post by tony sayer
And thats even after they pulled the Gas holders down!, course 405 lines
channel 2 was rather good;))...

Yes, IIRC, which presumably explains your smiley, the gasworks itself
had a television transmitter, didn't it?

I remember having a camera pointing out of my bedroom window looking
out over the gasworks, in a storm at night, hoping to get the scene
lit by lightning, but without success!

Post by tony sayer
We used to Use Sudbury in that area to get rid of the Marshal's hanger
ghost which was very bad that side of town,. Course Sudbury was used pre
Sandy for 625 line Colour .. a long while ago now..

Do you think Sudbury should be more powerful there than the other two
then? I wonder if I need to check up on that.

[tony sayer]

Post by Java Jive

Post by tony sayer
That's riverside in Cambridge just down the road from here.

No, it's Abbey Road. My mother and stepfather used to live in Abbey
House, the "big 'arse" at the top.

Yes, know the one, small world eh;?...

Post by Java Jive

Post by tony sayer
I'd very
much doubt that Waltham would be possible at all there. Even Sudbury
much better in and around Cambridge was U/S there and I can't help but
think that Taccy wouldn't work either or be very, very poor. Even Sandy
heath is a bit "awkward" around there.

I can't comment on the more distant two, and I dare say the mega
clutter of Elizabeth Way would indeed effectively block Waltham and
Sandy Heath at the bottom of the road, but my calculator has no
knowledge of clutter even the size of Elizabeth Way!

No I don't suppose it would its right in line with the rising ground up
to Castle hill, and as you say well "cluttered". And up in Band C. It
was sometimes still is used out towards Ely and in the Fens course the
rather flat earth helps;)...

Post by Java Jive

Post by tony sayer
And thats even after they pulled the Gas holders down!, course 405 lines
channel 2 was rather good;))...

Yes, IIRC, which presumably explains your smiley, the gasworks itself
had a television transmitter, didn't it?

Yes sure did, used to relay channel 5 from Peterborough and FM services
at rather low power 20 watts IIRC. Occasionally when it packed up we had
to ring Peterborough, very helpful they were too unlike them at Sandy
Heath but this was the 70's so a long time ago..

Post by Java Jive
I remember having a camera pointing out of my bedroom window looking
out over the gasworks, in a storm at night, hoping to get the scene
lit by lightning, but without success!

Sort of mb21 thang;)..

Post by Java Jive

Post by tony sayer
We used to Use Sudbury in that area to get rid of the Marshal's hanger
ghost which was very bad that side of town,. Course Sudbury was used pre
Sandy for 625 line Colour .. a long while ago now..

Do you think Sudbury should be more powerful there than the other two
then? I wonder if I need to check up on that.

I reckon it might well be, in fact in some parts of Cambridge we used to
get noise free pix but that area wasn't too good from memory but the bit
over towards Mill road, Romsey town was quite good. Then came the Heath
and superb pix all around:)..

[Java Jive]

I've checked this out. The reason that Sudbury doesn't feature in E
Cambridge results is that there is intervening high ground reaching to
the top of the Fresnel zone, which my calculator therefore assumes
totally blocks the signal.

Post by tony sayer

Post by Java Jive
Do you think Sudbury should be more powerful there than the other two
then? I wonder if I need to check up on that.

I reckon it might well be, in fact in some parts of Cambridge we used to
get noise free pix but that area wasn't too good from memory but the bit
over towards Mill road, Romsey town was quite good. Then came the Heath
and superb pix all around:)..

[PeterC]

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:17:14 +0100, Java Jive wrote:

Going back a couple of days, I've tried your calculator (great resource,
thank you - I can see the dish on my house!) in Opera 10.10, 10.53 and now
10.60 Beat and CPU is v. low. I haven't disabled,er, the bit I didn't
understand, so I assume that it's still going (it's set to 2000).

[Java Jive]

For some reason or other I missed this earlier. Sorry about that ...

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 22:34:29 +0100, PeterC

Post by PeterC
Going back a couple of days, I've tried your calculator (great resource,
thank you - I can see the dish on my house!) in Opera 10.10, 10.53 and now
10.60 Beat and CPU is v. low. I haven't disabled,er, the bit I didn't
understand, so I assume that it's still going

Well, I'm relieved, but also rather puzzled about this. Could you
check, you don't need to change anything, what the setting is in each
case? Type or copy'n'paste the following into the address bar and
press Return, and note whether the setting is enabled or not:

opera:config#Extensions|EcmaScriptJIT

Post by PeterC
(it's set to 2000).

Er, which option is set to that value, please? The one I've been
describing is either checked or unchecked (true or false).